Biblical Breakdown of Icons in Worship

Pastor Paul unpacks the misinterpretation of the Catholic Church and the ex-communication of Protestant beliefs.

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0:00 - Preview Intro
0:26 - Why Should We Care?
3:37 - Was the Council in line with Scripture?
5:53 - Highest Form of Truth
6:47 - Biggest Mistakes of the Council
15:11 - Veneration of the Saints
18:51 - Should we Venerate Images?
21:27 - God’s Commandment Toward His People
24:45 - Debate is Necessary
26:39 -  Outro

Chapters

• 0:00 Preview Intro
• 0:26 Why Should We Care?
• 3:37 Was the Council in line with Scripture?
• 5:53 Highest Form of Truth
• 6:47 Biggest Mistakes of the Council
• 15:11 Veneration of the Saints
• 18:51 Should we Venerate Images?
• 21:27 God’s Commandment Toward His People
• 24:45 Debate is Necessary
• 26:39 Outro

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:25:28
Unknown
You know, they talk to us as Protestants, as if everything is just all good. as if these anathema don't even exist when the fact of the matter is, they do exist. Men venerated other men, and these other men who were being venerated are not God. So case closed. And I would say as a Protestant, that's that's not very convincing, because I think if they would have started with the whole debate, would have been done.

00:00:26:01 - 00:00:53:21
Unknown
All right. Hey, guys, this is Jacob with the Prophecy podcast, and I'm joined today with Pastor Paul Liberati. we're going to have a brief discussion on the seventh Ecumenical Council that was in 1787 on icons. That's particularly the focus. We just want to talk about the biblical support as well as the sub stance in weight to this discussion, why Protestants should care about the Seventh Ecumenical Council and, how the church has always viewed icons and veneration.

00:00:53:21 - 00:01:09:24
Unknown
So I'll pass it off to you. Pastor Paul, tell us about why this discussion is important, why Protestants should care. Protestants and Catholics alike should care about this discussion. I think if we were going to ask the question, why is it important? It's because the Council made it a matter of salvation. And we're not just talking about the anathema.

00:01:09:29 - 00:01:35:13
Unknown
But yes, the anathema is where it really comes to a head. You know, even in the definition of the council, it's it's telling us not what we may do, but what we must do in terms of exposing these representations of art in the churches, on vestments, on panels in your homes, you know, all of that. but then, yeah, they, they attach, anathema to anyone who would disagree with that.

00:01:35:15 - 00:01:59:21
Unknown
So it gets really, really serious. And it's not something frankly, it's not something we would spend our time on if it wasn't that serious. But I have friends who are Roman Catholic. I have friends who are eastern Orthodox. And, you know, they talk to us as Protestants, as if everything is just all good, as if these anathema don't even exist when the fact of the matter is, they do exist.

00:01:59:21 - 00:02:30:27
Unknown
And in the Eastern Orthodox Church, there's an annual celebration, sort of like a ritual anathema of all Protestants, those who deny the seven Holy Ecumenical Council, those who do not worship our Lord Jesus Christ in the icon depicted after his human nature, anathema. I knock them up and knock them. I'm not. They're not Martin Luther, John Calvin, Willard Zwingli, and indeed the ungodly king and those assembling together with them and all the Protestant groups are not them.

00:02:30:29 - 00:02:51:18
Unknown
I knock him up and I'm John Calvin, Martin Luther, Ulric Zwingli, and everyone who would follow any one of those traditions. So, you know, it is it is very, very serious, because what they're saying to us is if you don't agree with the rulings of this council, then you are anathema. Let me just read one of those anathema to us.

00:02:51:24 - 00:03:19:14
Unknown
The first one is a little bit, it's bottom tier. Okay. We don't have a problem with it. It says if anyone does not accept representation in art of evangelical scenes, let him be anathema. So any sort of gospel scenes can be depicted in art. Fine. But then the next one says, if anyone does not salute such representations as standing for the Lord and his saints, let him be anathema.

00:03:19:14 - 00:03:46:24
Unknown
So you can see from that, we are not just to, tolerate their presence, tolerate their existence, but we are to respond to these images by way of salutation, greeting. and obviously what they call veneration. Yeah. So pretty. Pretty important. Yeah. And so when we look at the historic significance of this to, the iconoclasts and the icon of duels, the supporters and the antagonists here, I mean, there's a lot of savagery.

00:03:46:24 - 00:04:11:10
Unknown
There is death involved. I mean, Constantine of Constantinople was publicly beheaded. We had monks that were lashed to death. I mean, there was, a grueling and savage process that this went through, to stamp itself into history. So it definitely matters. The saints of history definitely cared about this. But of course, we want to know what the Word of God has to say about it, whether or not this has biblical sanction.

00:04:11:12 - 00:04:45:13
Unknown
Yeah, exactly. We're Protestants, and as Protestants, we are probably not on the side of the iconoclasts. probably more in line with the Carolingian, if you look at the historical record. But again, that would be a historical treatment. I think you're right where we need to go in this discussion because we are Protestants, is to the one fundamental and most important question, and that is, does this council do the rulings of this council, agree with Holy Scripture?

00:04:45:13 - 00:05:08:09
Unknown
Because the Scripture is the highest and the most? we would say it's the highest and the only infallible source of truth. Right? So so that means it's like the norm. This is what people will say. It's the norm that norms all other norms. Not to say that councils and the church itself doesn't have authority. We we acknowledge that.

00:05:08:12 - 00:05:31:13
Unknown
But but the authority of the church is under the authority of Holy Scripture. So our question today, I think, should be if we're going to start this discussion is, what do the scriptures say? So when the council got together and they started to debate these things out, if you go back in church history, you realize how much Scripture was put on the table in these debates.

00:05:31:15 - 00:06:06:02
Unknown
just think about Nicaea and think about Chalcedon, how, you know, biblical argument after biblical argument, exegesis and passage after passage. The question is in this seventh ecumenical council, how much Scripture was put forward, what were the biblical arguments? And are they valid? Right. So I think that's where we need to go. Yeah. And so as we start the discussion, especially as we start to get into the biblical evidence that supports or the lack thereof of this position, Exodus 2436, that's the second commandment.

00:06:06:02 - 00:06:25:15
Unknown
This is what really gives us kind of a starting point, a launching pad when it comes to icons and veneration. How we were to relate with them. So let me just make a quick reference here from Exodus 20. I'll read this one here for you. the word says you shall not make for yourself a carved image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

00:06:25:15 - 00:06:42:03
Unknown
You shall not bow down to them or serve them. For I, the Lord, I'm your God. I am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation, to those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love and keep my commandments. So that's that's going to be a good primer for us.

00:06:42:03 - 00:06:57:11
Unknown
So we're going to start with the second commandment, and then work from there to see what the rest of the scriptural import has to say. Yeah, you know, I wish the Council would have started with that commandment too. because I think if they would have started with that commandment, the, the whole debate would have been done, actually.

00:06:57:18 - 00:07:19:14
Unknown
And and it's almost like, it's like that would be the climax of, our investigation, if you don't mind, let me just freeze frame that passage and just set it to the side for just a second, only because I want to show where the council went in terms of their thinking along biblical lines. And then we'll return to the passage you just quoted.

00:07:19:14 - 00:07:40:27
Unknown
And that, again, I think ends the whole debate, because that's where they should have gone. Okay. what they did, what they did is they did something different. Now, of course, as you read through, the canons, the acts, you know, you read through all those things, you see that they sprinkle biblical references throughout, throughout the, the proceedings there.

00:07:40:29 - 00:08:10:09
Unknown
but their main biblical argument, I think the most important one is basically to marshal together different examples where we find men in the Old Testament, the people of God venerating that which is not God. So that's key. because they're grabbing on to this term venerating and they're saying worship belongs to the divine nature only. We only worship the Trinity, father, son, Holy Spirit.

00:08:10:09 - 00:08:39:11
Unknown
Right. But they say, but to venerate is a lesser form of devotion. To venerate is something that we see people doing in the Old Testament. And I think there's a few instances in the new, towards objects, whether people or things that are not God. Okay. Now that's the essence of their, their argument. And, and they bring forward a couple of, a couple of different examples.

00:08:39:11 - 00:09:06:01
Unknown
Let, let me, let me share a couple examples that I think, make their point. first of all, they point out that in First Kings chapter 20, verse 41, David had read Prince toward Jonathan. And the key there is a particular Greek term, you know, he, he, venerated Jonathan didn't worship him. That would be Latrell or Latricia, as they used to say.

00:09:06:03 - 00:09:36:09
Unknown
but this is, you know, it's a particular Greek term that they're saying refers to a veneration that is less than worship and it's acceptable. Okay. another passage is, Genesis 33 three where you have Jacob bowing down before Esau, and again it's you, ATO. And then you have, Genesis 23 three, where Abraham is bowing down before the Hittites as a sign of respect and reverence.

00:09:36:09 - 00:10:07:20
Unknown
And again, it's, you know, so, so, so they've marshaled together several, of these biblical examples and they say, hey, look, there's a form of devotion, of reverence that we're calling veneration, okay? It's, you know, and that is what we believe should be done unto objects and persons that are not God, and therefore they're making a line to say, if we could do it to men, we could do it to the images of those men, you see.

00:10:07:20 - 00:10:30:09
Unknown
Yeah. So that's that's in essence their, their argument. Yeah. That's fascinating. So they'll, they'll draw up a correlation between the biblical examples we have. And so they say if we've seen it here, then we can do it with the images and other icons. But I think it's also fascinating, Pastor Paul, how the council so often like to appeal to the historicity of their position and how this is the apostolic deposit.

00:10:30:09 - 00:10:44:29
Unknown
This is the tradition that's gone back, all the way to the first century with the apostles. So here at the Second Council of Nicaea, let me just give you a quick quote. It says, well, this is what they claim. This is the faith of the apostles. This is the faith of the fathers. This is the faith of the Orthodox.

00:10:44:29 - 00:11:03:06
Unknown
This is the faith that has sustained the world, believing in one God to be praised. In Trinity we kiss the honorable images. May those who do not hold accordingly be anathema. May those who do not believe accordingly be driven far away from the church. So they're saying a lot more than the fact that this is what Scripture seems to teach.

00:11:03:06 - 00:11:29:26
Unknown
They're saying, this is what the church has always done, right. And I know that's that's a pretty problematic position to take because, that's not necessarily what we see, certainly not in Scripture and certainly not throughout history. Yeah, yeah, we could do like an early church father survey or something like that and see, that really icon veneration, image veneration doesn't really appear for several hundreds of years.

00:11:29:26 - 00:11:47:07
Unknown
I think, Gavin Portland does some really, really good work on that. Yeah, we can cover that material, but here's where the two come together. Right. Because because the question when we talk about the early church and the apostolic practice actually begins in Scripture, of course. So, so the question is, what did the apostles who were the early church?

00:11:47:07 - 00:12:09:14
Unknown
You know, how you know, what did they do? What did they believe about this? And, and but but let's tie that together. Just launching from the argument that they're giving here. So they're marshaling all these examples together and they're saying, look, men venerated other men and these other men who were being venerated are not God. So case closed.

00:12:09:14 - 00:12:32:17
Unknown
And I would say as a Protestant, that's that's not very convincing. It's it's not very convincing for I would say, two reasons. the first one is that these passages, all the examples that they've given are what we would call descriptive passages, but they're not prescriptive passages. And that might sound like a fine distinction, but it's actually very, very important.

00:12:32:17 - 00:13:03:12
Unknown
Right. So the reason it's so important is that, examples that we find in Scripture, are not always given to us, to present a normative practice. Okay. So just because you see an example doesn't mean that that now becomes the normative practice for the church. So descriptions of what men have done and prescriptions of what the Word of God teaches us to do are two different things in many cases.

00:13:03:12 - 00:13:25:18
Unknown
And I would argue that they're two different things in this particular case. Right. And, and, if the, if that's going above the head of some of our viewers, maybe we can give an illustration to show why that's so important. think about polygamy. Think about marriage in the Bible. Right. So, so someone could easily come to us and say, well, I've got all these, all these examples of Old Testament saints who had more than one wife.

00:13:25:20 - 00:14:02:12
Unknown
You know, polygamy, many wives. Look at Solomon, you know, and therefore we can draw a straight line from those biblical examples of what these men did and what we ought to do today, or what's permissible or what's required of us today. And and again, there's a difference between descriptive passages of Scripture and prescriptive passages of Scripture and, and the way you know, that these biblical examples are not something to follow, is that when you get to the New Testament, further revelation is given on this particular subject.

00:14:02:12 - 00:14:30:21
Unknown
Right? So Jesus comes along and he makes it abundantly clear that in the beginning, God designed marriage to be between one man and one woman. So he he, clarifies that that is further revelation, clarifying, shedding light upon an Old Testament practice. Now, just because that Old Testament practice wasn't condemned by God when it was being done, doesn't mean it was approved by God, right?

00:14:30:23 - 00:14:53:19
Unknown
Because later on, you see Jesus actually telling us what God's design was. And then, later on, the apostle Paul, he picks that up and he says, because this is the biblical way, this is the creational way. therefore, if any man wants to be an officer in the Church of Jesus Christ, he must be a man with only one wife.

00:14:53:19 - 00:15:16:12
Unknown
So. So it becomes clearer and clearer as more and more revelation is given. Does that make sense? Yeah. So of course. So. And this is the mistake that the council is making, right. Yes. Is is drawing too close of a parallel between the descriptive and the prescriptive, without making that distinction. Right. And, and okay, so let's, let's back up and let's see how this applies to their argument.

00:15:16:12 - 00:15:38:11
Unknown
So you have these biblical examples of what men are doing. The question is should those men be doing that? I think one argument could be made that this is a civil expression. When you honor and Revere and respect another person because of that person's position or his office or his relationship to you, I mean, honor your father and your mother.

00:15:38:18 - 00:16:05:27
Unknown
That honor can't be, worship. There has to be a distinction there, right? But the council is making an argument from the term prosecuting. Oh, okay. That they're grabbing on to a Greek term. They're getting technical. They're getting exegetical. So let's search that out. Because when you when you do, continue to read in Scripture, you find that further revelation clarifies the limits on prosecuting a.

00:16:05:29 - 00:16:31:02
Unknown
Oh, okay. So let me give you an example. By the time you get to the New Testament, what we have are at least three instances, where prosecuting oh is denied and forbidden to be performed toward that which is not God. The first one is in acts chapter ten, verses 25 and 26. And, this is when Peter is going to Cornelius, his house.

00:16:31:05 - 00:17:00:22
Unknown
And it says, when Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and venerated him, prosecuting. Oh! But Peter lifted him up, saying, stand up, for I too am a man. That's interesting. That doesn't go with the assumption that is set forth by the counsel. Also, in the book of revelation, there's two instances where John wants to venerate the angel who's revealing things to him, and the angel will not allow it.

00:17:00:25 - 00:17:26:14
Unknown
let me read those revelation 1910. Then I fell down at his feet to venerate prosecutor O to venerate him. but he said to me, you must not do that. I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers, who hold to the testimony of Jesus, venerate God, you see, and then revelation 22, verses eight and nine.

00:17:26:16 - 00:17:47:24
Unknown
And I, John, saw these things and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to venerate at the feet of the angel which showed these things to me. That's prosecuting. Eight oh, then he said to me, see that you do not do that, for I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren, the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book.

00:17:48:01 - 00:18:14:01
Unknown
And then he gives them a command, and he says, Venerate God. See where this is going? Because, just from these three passages in the New Testament, this is further this is didactic revelation, right? This is prescriptive. don't do this. Do that. You know, don't venerate, the apostles. Peter would not allow himself to be venerated in his person, but only venerate God.

00:18:14:06 - 00:18:50:13
Unknown
The angel would not allow John to venerate him in his person, but only venerate God. And all of these terms are, you know, so so my argument as a Protestant would be that, yes, we do have those biblical examples, but they're not authoritative. They they don't create a 1 to 1, parallel with, I think the outcome that the council is seeking to arrive at, especially because all we have to do is say if Peter didn't want people venerating him in his person, what makes you think that Peter would want them to go and venerate an image of him?

00:18:50:13 - 00:19:24:06
Unknown
Right. So. So, yeah, Pastor Paul, it's clear that the apostles don't want themselves to be venerated. But what about the arguments which advocate for images of God to be venerated? So what if, what if we have an image of Jesus or the Holy Spirit? What about venerating God themselves, God himself, through the images? So I think I think the position of the council is that images of any, any person, the Lord Jesus Christ, because he has a human nature, an image can be made of him and an image can be venerated.

00:19:24:06 - 00:19:48:08
Unknown
But also they do include images of the saints and of Mary, the mother of our Lord. So so I don't think that they're they're compartmentalizing those. And that's that's another issue that needs it's sort of tangled up and it needs to be untied. It's like a knot where where we're saying we're not even making any difference between images of the Lord Jesus Christ and images of the saints.

00:19:48:08 - 00:20:13:24
Unknown
So, so they're really treating them in the same way, saying that they can they can all be made and they can all be venerated according to the veneration. Do you know, I'd go back and I would say this. I would say the first reason, the argument is put forward are not convincing is because further didactic revelation clarifies things and demonstrates that, this is an inappropriate action.

00:20:13:29 - 00:20:43:15
Unknown
Okay. But the second reason is that none of the passages that are put forward, right. all of those biblical examples of men venerating men, all of those, are given as examples. But in none of them do we even have the mention of an image. Like, the whole point that we're debating over is whether or not images like pictures, paintings, murals, and obviously in the West, statues right in the East.

00:20:43:15 - 00:21:13:13
Unknown
Icons. Right. The question is whether those objects could be venerated. And there is no biblical example of anyone venerating images of Jesus, the saints or anything else. Yeah. I mean, we we do have examples from from Exodus and other portions of the Bible where images of God are erect, such as, the Israelites who crafted the golden calf, thinking themselves that this was Yahweh.

00:21:13:15 - 00:21:33:10
Unknown
But here we have another example of a condemnation where this is considered idolatry. Yeah. So even where we have supposed veneration or worship of God in the form of an icon or a statue, it's always condemned. Yeah, absolutely. 100%. And I think this is where we turn the corner. We make that sharp turn and we go back to Exodus 20, which you led with.

00:21:33:12 - 00:21:58:21
Unknown
Because, because, because the council is seeking to make a biblical argument, and they're seeking to make a grammatical argument from the term prosecutor. So they marshal together several examples. But none of those examples have anything to say about images. But there is one passage that does have something to say about images, and the Greek term neo is used in connection, with those images.

00:21:58:24 - 00:22:27:20
Unknown
And that's Exodus chapter 20, verses four and five. So you already read it. But but the section where it says, you shall not bow down yourself to them nor serve them, that's the term prosecutor A0 and and here what? When when it talks about images, it's not just talking about images of God or images of false gods. It's literally talking about any visible representation whatsoever.

00:22:27:20 - 00:22:48:20
Unknown
Things in heaven, things on the earth, things under the earth. Right. So, so when it comes to images and visible representation, we are to venerate none of them, not a single one. No matter what it's representing. You don't bow down to it. You don't kiss it. You don't burn incense to it. You don't light candles to it. You don't pray through it like you just don't do it.

00:22:48:22 - 00:23:35:08
Unknown
And and not only because God says, I will not give my glory to graven images. But here he says, I am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me. God says, if you do this, you hate me, and I will punish you. I mean that so, so, so, you know, just to set the the contrast here you have you have a council of men who are telling us that we are eternally condemned if we don't venerate images, the holy icons right on one side and then on the other side, you have God Almighty.

00:23:35:11 - 00:23:58:05
Unknown
You have the Lord himself telling us that if you do venerate images, that you hate him and that you are now his enemy. So. So you've got men, the word of men, and you've got God, the Word of God. Well, I'll tell you. Right lean man. Yeah, let every man be a liar. But let God be true. So we'll we'll trust the scriptures on this one.

00:23:58:09 - 00:24:19:06
Unknown
Absolutely. And that's and that and that's why a discussion like this is important not just for Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, friends, but but for our Protestant friends. because because we were in that position where the other two traditions are basically saying, you guys don't have the fullness of the faith. And we're like the fullness of the faith.

00:24:19:06 - 00:24:37:13
Unknown
Like, what does that fullness consist of? And they say, well, and they start naming off all of their distinctive. And one of those distinctive is something like this. And we have to say, I don't think so. I will not bow down to any graven image. I don't care what kind of visible representation it is. I don't care what it represents.

00:24:37:13 - 00:25:01:07
Unknown
I'm not bowing down to it because you're anathema does not compare to the condemnation that comes from God himself. Yeah, and Pastor Paul, I know this is definitely a more nuanced discussion as well. There's, as you mentioned, Gavin Orland, who's discussions with Jimmy Aiken and Joe Meyer. Those are really great. So for people that want more of a historical basis and some of the development, he calls it, an accretion, definitely check out Gavin Orland.

00:25:01:07 - 00:25:18:19
Unknown
But just for kind of a cursory level biblical presentation, this is just a bit of a primer, but it definitely helps kind of get the ball rolling and start thinking about this biblically because it's easy to get caught up in traditions and just start quoting the, the, the creeds or quoting the, citations from the actual councils.

00:25:18:19 - 00:25:35:13
Unknown
But we need to go back to the scripture. Solid scripture, of course. and for those who want a more comprehensive discussion, check out some of those other videos. But, for now, any parting words before we, cut, cut the stream? Yeah, yeah, I do want to say that, you could tell that I'm passionate about this subject.

00:25:35:15 - 00:26:00:08
Unknown
I used to be Roman Catholic, so I have a background and a history, and I still have Roman Catholic family and dear friends. Orthodox friends as well. so I am passionate about this, but but but, Jacob, I think you can, you can verify we're not. We're not mad at anyone. it is a little frustrating in ecumenical dialogs when this seems to be like this huge stumbling block and that Protestants receive this second class citizenship.

00:26:00:08 - 00:26:30:17
Unknown
So. So we want to have vigorous debate. We want to have, you know, sincere, transparent, presentations of saying this is where we stand and this is how we feel about it, and we are willing to suffer, because we're trying to be faithful to the Word of God. So. So don't mistake. I guess what I want to say is don't mistake our passion, for, you know, antagonism because we're not against Roman Catholics per se, or Eastern Orthodox Christians at all.

00:26:30:17 - 00:26:49:16
Unknown
We we're actually for them. And we think that, part of that part of the way that we're going to be able to become more unified is if we have these hearty debates. All right, Pastor Paul, well, thank you so much for your time. obviously, this is a discussion that warrants more nuanced, but I think it's just kind of a surface level scriptural introduction.

00:26:49:16 - 00:27:06:29
Unknown
This gives us something to work with. I'm sure there'll be more discussions on this in the future, but for now, we'll see you later. Thank you for.